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AW: Use of RTCP statistics for estimating QoS of VoIP
by Horvath Ernst 07 Nov '02

07 Nov '02

Alan, I fully agree with Bob's reply below. In my view H.460.9 is now sufficiently open to be used for transporting also advanced statistical data, even if the initial choice reflects the content of today's RTCP reports. The information content of QoS reports is only one part of the standard. Another - maybe the major - part is the mechanism for conveying these reports from endpoints to gatekeepers and between gatekeepers. And this part does not change if improved QoS statistics become available. It was the unanimous opinion of the experts at the SG16 meeting that H.460.9 will be used for extended QoS reports as soon as the relevant work in IETF has finished. How this is best done will be decided when the RFC is available. Any input from your side is certainly welcome. Regards, Ernst Horvath Siemens AG > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Robert R. Gilman [mailto:rrg@AVAYA.COM] > Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 07. November 2002 02:13 > An: ITU-SG16(a)echo.jf.INTEL.COM > Betreff: Re: Use of RTCP statistics for estimating QoS of VoIP > > Alan- > Mike Buckley brought up the same questions you raise at the > last SG16 meeting. > I don't believe anyone objects to your arguments, and, in > fact, the resulting > work, H.460.9, was modified to permit extension to other > measures and the > exclusion of the current, IETF-standardized, measures. Once > the IETF draft > you reference becomes a standard, it will be easy to refer to > the resulting > RFC and to incorporate the resulting measures as appropriate. > In the meantime, > you have the option to use the existing measures and, through > the definition > of non-standard elements, any other measures you wish to > implement on a > permanent > or trial basis. It seemed better to set the framework now, so that > implementation > and use can begin, and to do so in such a way that future > improvements may be > incorporated quickly and easily. Does this make sense? > -Bob > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bob Gilman rrg(a)avaya.com +1 303 538 3868 > > > Alan Clark wrote: > > > > Paul > > > > I am responding to the recent SG16 email that encouraged > direct input from > > those not participating directly in the work of the Study Group. > > > > One particular recent issue relates to the recent addition > of QoS reporting > > based on RTCP statistics. We have spent the last three > years analyzing and > > modeling the effects of IP network impairments on VoIP and > would like to > > share our experience on this issue. > > > > RTCP statistics were intended to provide a "rough" real > time feedback > > between endpoints to give some sense of network quality and > facilitate > > potential adaptation. IP network impairments are transient > in nature and > > the "averaged" metrics that RFC1889 produces are as a result very > > misleading. The addition of QoS reporting based on RFC1889 > metrics is, in > > our opinion, a backward step as it infers that these > statistics are useful > > for VoIP quality estimation whereas they are in fact almost > meaningless. > > > > (i) Packet Loss - counts > > RFC1889 counts of loss are not compensated for duplicate > packets, hence it > > is possible to have incorrect and even negative (!!) loss counts. > > > > (ii) Packet Loss- distribution > > Voice quality is very sensitive to the distribution of > packet loss - if 2% > > loss occurs but the losses are spread out evenly then with > PLC quality would > > be affected only marginally, if 1% loss occurs but losses > occur during short > > intervals (typically the case) then quality can be affected quite > > significantly. > > RFC1889 does not consider the distribution of lost packets > and hence packet > > loss numbers can only grossly be equated to call quality > (i.e. loss rate of > > 20% is bad but you couldn't say for sure if 2% was bad or not) > > > > (iii) Jitter - metric > > The average packet-to-packet delay variation used in > RFC1889 does not > > properly reflect the effects of congestion related delay > changes. For > > example > > (a) if congesion occurs and a queue starts to fill then > delay increases > > however the packet-to-packet delay change may be small > however the increase > > in delay may cause the jitter buffer to resynchronize at some stage. > > (b) LAN congestion can cause short term spikes in delay, > and hence may lead > > to packet discards. The average packet-to-packet delay > variation will not > > reflect this due to the smoothing effect of the averaging algorithm. > > > > (iv) Jitter - reporting interval > > As jitter is reported as a running average with a scaling > factor of 16, an > > RTCP report only describes the jitter level during the > 200mS or so prior to > > the report being generated and says nothing about the > jitter level during > > the much larger period between reports. > > > > We have spoken to, and worked with, people in the industry > that have been > > looking at this issue in detail and have found general > agreement with the > > comments above. Unfortunately, there are also a fair > number of people that > > blindly accept that something must be "ok" because it is > "in a standard" .. > > this obviously raised the concern that incorporating these > metrics into the > > H series of standards further proliferates this viewpoint. > > > > Within the IETF AVT group this issue was discussed almost a > year ago, and > > the group agreed to develop a set of metrics that were more > accurate and > > appropriate for VoIP QoS reporting purposes. These include > measures of > > packet loss, packets discarded due to jitter, length and > density of bursts > > and gaps (of combined loss and discard), delay, call > quality metrics... > > This is contained in the following:- > > > > draft-ietf-avt-rtcp-report-extns-01.txt > > > > I would very much appreciate understanding the technical > rationale behind > > incorporating RFC1889 based metrics into VoIP QoS reports, given the > > comments above. > > > > Regards > > > > Alan Clark > > Telchemy > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to > > listserv(a)lists.intel.com > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to > listserv(a)lists.intel.com > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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AW: [h323forum] Participating in H.323/H.248 standardization meet ings
by Sebestyen Istvan ICN M SR 3 06 Nov '02

06 Nov '02

Folks, maybe what I could add to this, while what Paul has written is completely correct: 1) You can participate as "expert" in a Rapporteur Meeting, if the Rapporteur (e.g. Paul) feels that it contributes to the progress of work. The implementation of an "open door" policy - if he feels that is the right way to go - is up to him as a Rapporteur. 2) However, while you may provide there key contributions to the progress of H.323 Standardization, in the end you have no power to participate in the official commenting and approval process. Those can be done only by ITU-T members and ITU-T Associates (the later can officially comment, but not "vote"). However, since changes from the "top" - I mean on SG level are not frequent, your contribution at the "bottom" can be still very powerful for the shaping of the standard. Kind regards, Istvan -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Paul E. Jones [mailto:paulej@packetizer.com] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. November 2002 05:38 An: ITU-SG16(a)echo.jf.INTEL.COM; imtch323implementors(a)mail.imtc.org; h323forum(a)mail.imtc.org Betreff: [h323forum] Participating in H.323/H.248 standardization meetings Folks, I have received questions from a number of people asking if or how people can participate in the standardization activities related to H.323, H.248, etc. Most people have been under the impression that, since they are not members of the ITU, they do not have a voice and do not have a means to contribute to the work related to H.323 and H.248. While it is true that the ITU meetings are generally closed to members, we do have a much more "open door" policy at Rapporteur's meetings and definitely encourage participation from members and non-members alike. Rapporteur's meetings are where much of the real work gets done, so your participation would definitely be beneficial. In February 2003, we will hold the next Rapporteur's meeting for Questions 2, 3, 4, 5, D, F, and G of Study Group 16. The meeting announcement will be posted to the ITU-T SG16 mailing list (see http://www.packetizer.com/iptel/h323/lists.html <http://www.packetizer.com/iptel/h323/lists.html> for information on joining the list), which is the official mailing list for work related to those Questions. I would encourage any interested person to contribute to the work going on related to those Questions, regardless of his/her association with the ITU. While being present at the meeting is really beneficial to the work going on, it certainly is not mandatory. Even if you are not present, if you have a feature you want to propose or propose a new work item, you could simply submit the proposal in writing and it will be considered. With that said, though, as folks who do participate in these meetings know, it is generally better to be present to make your point and help drive the work. If you have a contribution you want to make in the area of H.323, H.248, etc., you are definitely welcome! In addition, I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have related to procedural matters. Best Regards, Paul --- You are currently subscribed to h323forum as: istvan.sebestyen(a)icn.siemens.de To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-h323forum-27338W(a)mail.imtc.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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Participating in H.323/H.248 standardization meetings
by Paul E. Jones 05 Nov '02

05 Nov '02

Folks, I have received questions from a number of people asking if or how people can participate in the standardization activities related to H.323, H.248, etc. Most people have been under the impression that, since they are not members of the ITU, they do not have a voice and do not have a means to contribute to the work related to H.323 and H.248. While it is true that the ITU meetings are generally closed to members, we do have a much more "open door" policy at Rapporteur's meetings and definitely encourage participation from members and non-members alike. Rapporteur's meetings are where much of the real work gets done, so your participation would definitely be beneficial. In February 2003, we will hold the next Rapporteur's meeting for Questions 2, 3, 4, 5, D, F, and G of Study Group 16. The meeting announcement will be posted to the ITU-T SG16 mailing list (see http://www.packetizer.com/iptel/h323/lists.html for information on joining the list), which is the official mailing list for work related to those Questions. I would encourage any interested person to contribute to the work going on related to those Questions, regardless of his/her association with the ITU. While being present at the meeting is really beneficial to the work going on, it certainly is not mandatory. Even if you are not present, if you have a feature you want to propose or propose a new work item, you could simply submit the proposal in writing and it will be considered. With that said, though, as folks who do participate in these meetings know, it is generally better to be present to make your point and help drive the work. If you have a contribution you want to make in the area of H.323, H.248, etc., you are definitely welcome! In addition, I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have related to procedural matters. Best Regards, Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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Re: final docs
by OKUBO Sakae 01 Nov '02

01 Nov '02

Dear Gary and all, At 11:14 -0500 02/11/01, Gary Thom wrote: >H.460.4_final.doc has been uploaded to the incomming directory. This has been moved to the following place: http://standard.pictel.com/ftp/avc-site/0210_Gen/H4604_Final.zip -- Best regards, OKUBO Sakae e-mail: okubo(a)giti.waseda.ac.jp ******************************************************************* YRP Office Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) Waseda University YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 468 47 5406 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 468 47 5413 239-0847 Japan GITI Headquarter 29-7 Waseda University Bldg. Tel: +81 3 5286 3831 1-3-10 Nishi-Waseda, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo Fax: +81 3 5286 3832 169-0051 Japan ******************************************************************* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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Unknown files at /Incoming
by OKUBO Sakae 01 Nov '02

01 Nov '02

Dear subscribers, I have deleted Ba_XP9.004 and Ba_W98B.pqi at /Incoming. If they are yours, please re-post them with an announcement on the reflector. -- Best regards, OKUBO Sakae e-mail: okubo(a)giti.waseda.ac.jp ******************************************************************* YRP Office Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) Waseda University YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 468 47 5406 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 468 47 5413 239-0847 Japan GITI Headquarter 29-7 Waseda University Bldg. Tel: +81 3 5286 3831 1-3-10 Nishi-Waseda, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo Fax: +81 3 5286 3832 169-0051 Japan ******************************************************************* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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Re: Uploaded document
by OKUBO Sakae 01 Nov '02

01 Nov '02

Dear Mr. Horvath and all, At 12:09 +0100 02/10/31, Horvath Ernst wrote: >I have uoloaded H.460.9 final draft to /Incoming. This has been moved to the following place: http://standard.pictel.com/ftp/avc-site/0210_Gen/h-460-9-QoSMon-final-draft… -- Best regards, OKUBO Sakae e-mail: okubo(a)giti.waseda.ac.jp ******************************************************************* YRP Office Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) Waseda University YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 468 47 5406 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 468 47 5413 239-0847 Japan GITI Headquarter 29-7 Waseda University Bldg. Tel: +81 3 5286 3831 1-3-10 Nishi-Waseda, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo Fax: +81 3 5286 3832 169-0051 Japan ******************************************************************* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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Uploaded documents
by OKUBO Sakae 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Dear SG16 experts, At 11:07 +0100 02/10/30, Euchner Martin ICN M SR 3 wrote: >The latest draft H.235V3 (as in TD-28r1 WP2/16)has been uploaded to the >Incoming directory. > >Any review, or even contributions against that documents are highly >appreciated... At 12:20 -0500 02/10/30, Paul E. Jones wrote: >I uploaded several draft documents to the Incoming directory on the >avc-site: > AnnexGv2.zip > DraftH460.3.zip > H323AnnexP.zip > H460-7-Digitmap.zip > H460-8-ReQuery.zip > h460-6plen.zip They have been moved to the following place: http://standard.pictel.com/ftp/avc-site/0210_Gen/ Best regards, OKUBO Sakae e-mail: okubo(a)giti.waseda.ac.jp ******************************************************************* YRP Office Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) Waseda University YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 468 47 5406 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 468 47 5413 239-0847 Japan GITI Headquarter 29-7 Waseda University Bldg. Tel: +81 3 5286 3831 1-3-10 Nishi-Waseda, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo Fax: +81 3 5286 3832 169-0051 Japan ******************************************************************* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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Re: Draft H.235v3 uploaded
by Euchner Martin ICN M SR 3 30 Oct '02

30 Oct '02

Olivier, thank you for the assistance. Please note, that H.235v3 is not yet approved and depending on further contributions, text and even ASN.1 may change. So it is perhaps a bit too early to make these parts public on the ITU-T webpage. With kind regards Martin Euchner. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Dipl.-Inf. Rapporteur Q.G/SG16 | Martin Euchner Phone: +49 89 722 55790 | Siemens AG.....................Fax : +49 89 722 62366 | ICN M SR 3 mailto:Martin.Euchner@icn.siemens.de | mailto:martin.euchner@ties.itu.int | Hofmannstr. 51 Intranet: http://intranet.icn.siemens.de/marketing/cs27/topics/security/ | D-81359 Muenchen Internet: http://www.siemens.de/ | __________________ | Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: DUBUISSON Olivier [mailto:olivier.dubuisson@francetelecom.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:18 PM To: Euchner Martin ICN M SR 3 Cc: ITU-SG16(a)echo.jf.INTEL.COM; Julien BARBEAU Subject: Re: Draft H.235v3 uploaded Euchner Martin ICN M SR 3 wrote: > > The latest draft H.235V3 (as in TD-28r1 WP2/16) has been uploaded to the > Incoming directory. FYI the ASN.1 modules of the 2000 edition of H.235 are available in the module database of the ITU-T ASN.1 Project at: http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/asn1/database/itu-t/h/h235/2000/index.html We will check and compile H.235V3 and upload the modules to the ITU-T website ASAP. -- Olivier DUBUISSON (ITU-T ASN.1 Project leader) france telecom R&D DTL/TAL - 22307 Lannion Cedex - France t: +33 2 96 05 38 50 - f: +33 2 96 05 39 45 - http://asn1.elibel.tm.fr/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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Draft H.235v3 uploaded
by Euchner Martin ICN M SR 3 30 Oct '02

30 Oct '02

The latest draft H.235V3 (as in TD-28r1 WP2/16) has been uploaded to the Incoming directory. Any review, or even contributions against that documents are highly appreciated... With kind regards Martin Euchner. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Dipl.-Inf. Rapporteur Q.G/SG16 | Martin Euchner Phone: +49 89 722 55790 | Siemens AG.....................Fax : +49 89 722 62366 | ICN M SR 3 mailto:Martin.Euchner@icn.siemens.de | mailto:martin.euchner@ties.itu.int | Hofmannstr. 51 Intranet: http://intranet.icn.siemens.de/marketing/cs27/topics/security/ | D-81359 Muenchen Internet: http://www.siemens.de/ | __________________ | Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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Re: Outcome of the SG16 meeting just finished
by OKUBO Sakae 30 Oct '02

30 Oct '02

Dear Mike and all, At 15:55 +0000 02/10/29, mike.nilsson(a)bt.com wrote: >I have uploaded the file H245wcmr.zip to the incoming directory. > >This is the same as the file H245wcmr5.zip thatI sent on Thursday at >4:32PM (UK time). I am assuming this was accepted by the plenary without >any changes, and is technically the same as TD-92R1(PLEN). Yes, TD-92R1(PLEN) was accepted at the beginning of SG16 session last Friday. The file has been moved to /0210_Gen directory. Best regards, OKUBO Sakae e-mail: okubo(a)giti.waseda.ac.jp ******************************************************************* YRP Office Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) Waseda University YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 468 47 5406 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 468 47 5413 239-0847 Japan GITI Headquarter 29-7 Waseda University Bldg. Tel: +81 3 5286 3831 1-3-10 Nishi-Waseda, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo Fax: +81 3 5286 3832 169-0051 Japan ******************************************************************* -- $BBg5WJ] (B $B\F (B e-mail: okubo(a)giti.waseda.ac.jp ************************************************************* $B") (B239-0847 $B2#?\2l;T8w$N5V (B3-4 YRP $B#1HV4[ (B312 Tel: 0468 47 5406 $BAa0pEDBg3X9q:]>pJsDL?.8&5f%;%s%?!< (BYRP $BJ,<< (B Fax: 0468 47 5413 $B") (B169-0051 $B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (B $BEl5~ET?7=I6h@>Aa0pED (B1-3-10 $B!!!! (BTel: 03 5286 3831 $BAa0pEDBg3X (B29-7 $B9f4[!!!!!!!!!!!! (B Fax: 03 5286 3832 $BAa0pEDBg3X9q:]>pJsDL?.8&5f%;%s%?!< (B ************************************************************* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For help on this mail list, send "HELP ITU-SG16" in a message to listserv(a)lists.intel.com

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