August 2006 - sg16-avd - lists.packetizer.com

Q1/16 meeting has concluded: report and documents
by Patrick Luthi 31 Aug '06

31 Aug '06

Dear experts, The Rapporteur meeting of Q.1/16 has concluded. The meeting report can be found here: http://ftp3.itu.int/av-arch/lbc-site/0608_Ottawa/q1f13r1.doc The final list of documents is available here: http://ftp3.itu.ch/av-arch/lbc-site/0608_Ottawa/q1f00r1.doc Best regards, Patrick Luthi Rapporteur for Q.1/16

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RE: Document number allocation request
by Paul E. Jones 26 Aug '06

26 Aug '06

Ishikawa-san, I have not experienced any problems accessing the server: the performance has been good. So, it must be a problem with the connection from Japan to Geneva. (This server is owned and operated by the ITU in Geneva, Switzerland.) I tested the server just now and downloaded a file at 1.6Mbps. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what to suggest to you. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: ishikawa [mailto:chiaki.ishikawa@ubin.jp] > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 6:48 AM > To: Paul E. Jones > Cc: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp; 'Noboru Koshizuka'; itu- > sg16(a)external.cisco.com; ishikawa > Subject: Re: Document number allocation request > > Dear Paul E. Jones, > > I am not sure to whom I should report this network problem, but > thought you might be the first choice for me. > > The ftp site which we are using, ftp3.itu.int > seems to have a very narrow bandwidth to the outside, for example, Japan. > > I have no idea why it is so slow, but I monitor the transfer rate > dropping down from 1.5 Kb/sec to almost nil when I tried to > download the mentioned file today at aroun 19:45 JST (9 hours ahead of > UTC). > > This may be a temporary anomaly, but given the slowness I observed the > other > day, this may be a symptom from long-lingerling underlying problem. > > Or it may be that the bandwidth is shared by MANY connections. I have no > idea. > > But given this transfer rate, I feel that some participants who try to > download the presentation files in the one week window immediately prior > to > the meetings may get frustrated. > > Just wanted to share my finding of this narrow bandwidth problem. > > Looking forward to seeing you in Ottawa. > (My colleagues and I leave for Canada this coming Sunday [Japan Standard > Time].) > > Sincerely > Chiaki Ishikawa > > Paul E. Jones wrote: > > Ishikawa-san, > > > > I have uploaded the document as AVD-2935a.zip. > > > > I accepted all of the changes appearing in revision marks. I edited the > > contact footer so that it only appears on the first page. I also edited > the > > contact lines so that the word "Contact" does not appear on each line. > > > > Paul > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Ishikawa, Chiaki [mailto:chiaki.ishikawa@ubin.jp] > >> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:49 PM > >> To: Paul E. Jones > >> Cc: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp; 'Noboru Koshizuka'; 'Ishikawa, Chiaki'; > >> itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > >> Subject: Re: Document number allocation request > >> > >> > >> Dear Paul E. Jones, > >> > >> We have made a few last minute changes (fixing typos, misspells, etc.) > >> to the document which was submitted a few hours ago. > >> I uploaded a file to the ftp site. > >> So please use the latest file uploaded to the ftp site. > >> (We may still make another change or two. Catching English mistakes > >> is difficult for non-native English speakers.) > >> > >> Thank you in advance for your attention. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> Chiaki Ishikawa > >> > >> Paul E. Jones wrote: > >>> Takashima-san, > >>> > >>> Please use AVD-2935. > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp [mailto:youichi.takashima@ubin.jp] > >>>> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:33 AM > >>>> To: Paul Jones > >>>> Cc: Noboru Koshizuka; Ishikawa, Chiaki > >>>> Subject: Document number allocation request > >>>> > >>>> Dear Paul, > >>>> > >>>> Could you allocate a document number to the following contribution? > >>>> > >>>> Source: YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory > >>>> Title: Analysis of Information Delivery Applications using Networked > ID > >>>> Question: 22 > >>>> > >>>> This is a "proposal" document. > >>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >>>> Youichi TAKASHIMA > >>>> YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory > >>>> Phone +81 3 5437 2270 > >>>> Facsimile +81 3 5437 2329 > >>>> 2-20-1 Nishi-Gotanda, Shinagawa-ku, Tokyo 141-0031 JAPAN > >>>> > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >

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Re: Document number allocation request
by ishikawa 25 Aug '06

25 Aug '06

Dear Paul E. Jones, I am not sure to whom I should report this network problem, but thought you might be the first choice for me. The ftp site which we are using, ftp3.itu.int seems to have a very narrow bandwidth to the outside, for example, Japan. I have no idea why it is so slow, but I monitor the transfer rate dropping down from 1.5 Kb/sec to almost nil when I tried to download the mentioned file today at aroun 19:45 JST (9 hours ahead of UTC). This may be a temporary anomaly, but given the slowness I observed the other day, this may be a symptom from long-lingerling underlying problem. Or it may be that the bandwidth is shared by MANY connections. I have no idea. But given this transfer rate, I feel that some participants who try to download the presentation files in the one week window immediately prior to the meetings may get frustrated. Just wanted to share my finding of this narrow bandwidth problem. Looking forward to seeing you in Ottawa. (My colleagues and I leave for Canada this coming Sunday [Japan Standard Time].) Sincerely Chiaki Ishikawa Paul E. Jones wrote: > Ishikawa-san, > > I have uploaded the document as AVD-2935a.zip. > > I accepted all of the changes appearing in revision marks. I edited the > contact footer so that it only appears on the first page. I also edited the > contact lines so that the word "Contact" does not appear on each line. > > Paul > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ishikawa, Chiaki [mailto:chiaki.ishikawa@ubin.jp] >> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:49 PM >> To: Paul E. Jones >> Cc: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp; 'Noboru Koshizuka'; 'Ishikawa, Chiaki'; >> itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com >> Subject: Re: Document number allocation request >> >> >> Dear Paul E. Jones, >> >> We have made a few last minute changes (fixing typos, misspells, etc.) >> to the document which was submitted a few hours ago. >> I uploaded a file to the ftp site. >> So please use the latest file uploaded to the ftp site. >> (We may still make another change or two. Catching English mistakes >> is difficult for non-native English speakers.) >> >> Thank you in advance for your attention. >> >> Sincerely, >> Chiaki Ishikawa >> >> Paul E. Jones wrote: >>> Takashima-san, >>> >>> Please use AVD-2935. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> Paul >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp [mailto:youichi.takashima@ubin.jp] >>>> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:33 AM >>>> To: Paul Jones >>>> Cc: Noboru Koshizuka; Ishikawa, Chiaki >>>> Subject: Document number allocation request >>>> >>>> Dear Paul, >>>> >>>> Could you allocate a document number to the following contribution? >>>> >>>> Source: YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory >>>> Title: Analysis of Information Delivery Applications using Networked ID >>>> Question: 22 >>>> >>>> This is a "proposal" document. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Youichi TAKASHIMA >>>> YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory >>>> Phone +81 3 5437 2270 >>>> Facsimile +81 3 5437 2329 >>>> 2-20-1 Nishi-Gotanda, Shinagawa-ku, Tokyo 141-0031 JAPAN >>>> >>>> > > > >

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RE: AVD-2911a and AVD-2913a
by Paul E. Jones 24 Aug '06

24 Aug '06

Thanks! The revised documents will be posted shortly. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: OKUBO Sakae [mailto:okubo@mxz.mesh.ne.jp] > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:48 AM > To: Paul E. Jones > Cc: itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > Subject: AVD-2911a and AVD-2913a > > Dear Paul, > > I have modified AVD-2911 and AVD-2913 as uploaded to the /Incoming > directory. These are referring to the liaison statements that TSB has > recently made available and you have registered as AVD-documents. The > substance is not changed. > > -- > Best regards, > > OKUBO Sakae > e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp > (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) > Visiting Professor > Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) > Waseda University > ****************************************************************** > Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 > 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 > 239-0847 Japan > H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice > ****************************************************************** >

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AVD-2911a and AVD-2913a
by OKUBO Sakae 24 Aug '06

24 Aug '06

Dear Paul, I have modified AVD-2911 and AVD-2913 as uploaded to the /Incoming directory. These are referring to the liaison statements that TSB has recently made available and you have registered as AVD-documents. The substance is not changed. -- Best regards, OKUBO Sakae e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) Visiting Professor Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) Waseda University ****************************************************************** Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 239-0847 Japan H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice ******************************************************************

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RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement
by Paul E. Jones 23 Aug '06

23 Aug '06

Roni, This is a requirement statement, not a statement tied to a particular solution. Interpreting the words, I think what I said would be correct irrespective of any particular solution. However, I delved into H.323v1 and H.323v2 discussions, as I think any person's immediate question might be "why not v1 or v2". You said in a separate reply that using an ALG or a proxy solution, even H.323v1 might be supported. That's entirely right, which makes the requirement even more confusing. This requirement just says that, whatever we do to address NAT/FW issues, we need to ensure it works H.323v3 or higher and it's OK if the final solution will not work with H.323v1 or v2. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Even, Roni [mailto:roni.even@polycom.co.il] > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 2:45 AM > To: Paul E. Jones; OKUBO Sakae; itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > Subject: RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement > > Paul, > I would like to emphasis that this is true only for Nat traversal based > on H.460 (17, 18, 19) and not to other means of NAT traversal > Roni Even > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul E. Jones [mailto:paulej@PACKETIZER.COM] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 7:18 AM > > To: 'OKUBO Sakae'; itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > > Subject: RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement > > > > Mr. Okubo, > > > > Given this wording, I would say the answer to your question is "it MAY > > work > > with H.323v1 or H.323v2, but SHALL work with H.323v3, v4, v5, v6, ..." > > > > In reality, I don't believe v1 systems can be supported, since H.323v1 > > systems were required to use H.245v2. H.323v2 lifted this > restriction, so > > devices could implement later versions of H.245 approved independently > of > > H.323. > > > > Paul > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: OKUBO Sakae [mailto:okubo@MXZ.MESH.NE.JP] > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:10 AM > > > To: itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > > > Subject: Question on a NAT traversal requirement > > > > > > Dear NAT traversal experts, > > > > > > TTC (The Telecommunication Technology Committee) is now working on > > > Technical Paper "Requirements for Network Address Translator and > > > Firewall Traversal of H.323 Multimedia Systems" to convert it to a > > > Technical Report in Japanese language. > > > > > > I have a question on how to interpret the following part: > > > > > > ---------- > > > 9.3 Requirements on Signalling and Media Streams > > > b) NAT traversal mechanisms for H.323 multimedia systems shall > > > support no less than ITU-T H.323v3, H.245v7, H.225.0v4, and H.235v3. > > > All later versions of H.323, H.245, H.225.0 and H.235 may be > > > supported. > > > ---------- > > > > > > Take an example of H.323 that has now v6. Which of the following > > > statements are true? > > > > > > NAT traversal > > > > > > 1/ shall not support v1 or v2. > > > 2/ may support v1 or v2. > > > 3/ shall support v3. > > > 4/ shall support v3 and in addition may support any combinations of > > > v4, v5 and v6. > > > 5/ shall support v3 and may support v4, or (v4 and v5), or (v4, v5 > and > > > v6). > > > > > > In other words, NAT traversal with the following support conforms to > > > this requirement: > > > > > > a/ v3 > > > b/ v4 > > > c/ v5 > > > d/ v6 > > > e/ v3, v4 > > > f/ v3, v5 > > > g/ v3, v6 > > > h/ v3, v4, v5 > > > i/ v3, v4, v5, v6 > > > j/ v4, v5 > > > k/ v4, v6 > > > l/ v4, v5, v6 > > > m/ v5, v6 > > > > > > -- > > > Best regards, > > > > > > OKUBO Sakae > > > e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp > > > (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) > > > Visiting Professor > > > Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) > > > Waseda University > > > ****************************************************************** > > > Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 > > > 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 > > > 239-0847 Japan > > > H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice > > > ****************************************************************** > > > >

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Meeting documents posted
by Paul E. Jones 23 Aug '06

23 Aug '06

Dear Experts, The documents for the meeting next week have all been posted. The current list of document is here: http://ftp3.itu.ch/av-arch/avc-site/2005-2008/0608_Ott/0608_Ott.html I will update that as late arriving documents appear and with any additional liaison statements Rapporteur's request that I post. Before the end of the week, I will publish the list of documents as TD-02, but the above HTML file contains the same contents. If you see any errors in titles, references, etc., please let me know and I will make the necessary changes. Thanks! Paul

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RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement
by OKUBO Sakae 23 Aug '06

23 Aug '06

Dear all who kindly responded to my question, Now I understand the required minimum versions are coming from the expected use of H.225.0 generic extensibility framework and H.245 generic parameter in the NAT traversal mechanism. ---------- 9.3 Requirements on Signalling and Media Streams b) NAT traversal mechanisms for H.323 multimedia systems shall support no less than ITU-T H.323v3, H.245v7, H.225.0v4, and H.235v3. All later versions of H.323, H.245, H.225.0 and H.235 may be supported. ---------- My original difficulty was in the English expression "shall support no less than version n." It is negative to "less than n" hence equivalent to "n or higher." Furthermore, I understand that version n is a super-set of previous version (n-1), at least in principle ..., in our standards, meaning that version n entity can interwork with any lower version entity. Then the second sentence "may support any later version" would be overlapping with the first sentence. In conclusion, a NAT traversal mechanism with the following H.323 support conforms to this requirement (not mentioning H.245, H.225.0. H.235 for simplicity): a/ v3 b/ v4 c/ v5 d/ v6 e/ v3, v4 ==> equivalent to b/ f/ v3, v5 ==> equivalent to c/ g/ v3, v6 ==> equivalent to d/ h/ v3, v4, v5 ==> equivalent to c/ i/ v3, v4, v5, v6 ==> equivalent to d/ j/ v4, v5 ==> equivalent to c/ k/ v4, v6 ==> equivalent to d/ l/ v4, v5, v6 ==> equivalent to d/ m/ v5, v6 ==> equivalent to d/ I hope I am correct. -- Best regards, OKUBO Sakae e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) Visiting Professor Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) Waseda University ****************************************************************** Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 239-0847 Japan H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice ******************************************************************

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Documents for the next week meeting of Q.1
by Patrick Luthi 23 Aug '06

23 Aug '06

Dear experts, Almost all meeting documents have been posted: http://ftp3.itu.int/av-arch/lbc-site/0608_Ottawa ftp://ftp3.itu.int/lbc-site/0608_Ottawa user: avguest, password: Avguest The list of documents is available here: http://ftp3.itu.ch/av-arch/lbc-site/0608_Ottawa/q1f00.doc Best regards, Patrick Luthi Rapporteur for Q.1/16

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RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement
by Paul E. Jones 23 Aug '06

23 Aug '06

Mr. Okubo, Given this wording, I would say the answer to your question is "it MAY work with H.323v1 or H.323v2, but SHALL work with H.323v3, v4, v5, v6, ..." In reality, I don't believe v1 systems can be supported, since H.323v1 systems were required to use H.245v2. H.323v2 lifted this restriction, so devices could implement later versions of H.245 approved independently of H.323. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: OKUBO Sakae [mailto:okubo@MXZ.MESH.NE.JP] > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:10 AM > To: itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > Subject: Question on a NAT traversal requirement > > Dear NAT traversal experts, > > TTC (The Telecommunication Technology Committee) is now working on > Technical Paper "Requirements for Network Address Translator and > Firewall Traversal of H.323 Multimedia Systems" to convert it to a > Technical Report in Japanese language. > > I have a question on how to interpret the following part: > > ---------- > 9.3 Requirements on Signalling and Media Streams > b) NAT traversal mechanisms for H.323 multimedia systems shall > support no less than ITU-T H.323v3, H.245v7, H.225.0v4, and H.235v3. > All later versions of H.323, H.245, H.225.0 and H.235 may be > supported. > ---------- > > Take an example of H.323 that has now v6. Which of the following > statements are true? > > NAT traversal > > 1/ shall not support v1 or v2. > 2/ may support v1 or v2. > 3/ shall support v3. > 4/ shall support v3 and in addition may support any combinations of > v4, v5 and v6. > 5/ shall support v3 and may support v4, or (v4 and v5), or (v4, v5 and > v6). > > In other words, NAT traversal with the following support conforms to > this requirement: > > a/ v3 > b/ v4 > c/ v5 > d/ v6 > e/ v3, v4 > f/ v3, v5 > g/ v3, v6 > h/ v3, v4, v5 > i/ v3, v4, v5, v6 > j/ v4, v5 > k/ v4, v6 > l/ v4, v5, v6 > m/ v5, v6 > > -- > Best regards, > > OKUBO Sakae > e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp > (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) > Visiting Professor > Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) > Waseda University > ****************************************************************** > Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 > 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 > 239-0847 Japan > H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice > ****************************************************************** >

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RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement
by Even, Roni 23 Aug '06

23 Aug '06

Hi, If you read my response you will see that this requirements comes are there since the requirement when written took into account that one solution will be based on the H.323 extension mechanisms that require those H.323, H.225.0 and H.245 versions. So systems that are H.323 V2 will not be able to support H.460.18 and H.460.19. Possibly it is that to implement H.40.18 and H.460.19 you need those H.323 versions and above. Like I mentioned if you use SBC or ALGs then this is not required and the SBC and ALG will also support H.323 V2 and V1(if there are) product. Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Boyle [mailto:kboyle@nortel.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:56 PM > To: cathy jiang > Cc: itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > Subject: RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement > > From my reading of this, the system requires at least H.323v3. H.323v1 > and v2 are inadequate. > > Note that the other specs are subject to different version requirements: > H.245 must be at least v7, for example. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: cathy jiang [mailto:jiangxiaolin@mail.ritt.com.cn] > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:19 AM > To: OKUBO Sakae > Subject: RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement > > Mr.Okubo, > > From this sentence you quoted, it means that NAT/FW traversal schemes > should consider at least V3 and also should have the abilities to adapt > to the later versions, i.e. v4,v5 and v6. There might have some legacy > networks deployed with h.323 v1/v2 which should be taken into > cosideration of NAT/FW traversal.But it was not implied here that NAT/FW > traversal MUST support v1/v2. > > Best > Xiaolin > > > > ======= At 2006-08-22, 16:25:30 you wrote: ======= > > >Mr. Okubo, > > > >This statement is there since the in order to allow solutions that will > > >require the extensibility framework and generic parameters defined only > > >from those versions. > >This means that any version from this version and above will work. It > >also means that NAT traversal may work with older systems using other > >NAT traversal mechanisms like Session Border Controllers or ALGs > > > >Roni Even > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: OKUBO Sakae [mailto:okubo@MXZ.MESH.NE.JP] > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:10 AM > >> To: itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > >> Subject: Question on a NAT traversal requirement > >> > >> Dear NAT traversal experts, > >> > >> TTC (The Telecommunication Technology Committee) is now working on > >> Technical Paper "Requirements for Network Address Translator and > >> Firewall Traversal of H.323 Multimedia Systems" to convert it to a > >> Technical Report in Japanese language. > >> > >> I have a question on how to interpret the following part: > >> > >> ---------- > >> 9.3 Requirements on Signalling and Media Streams > >> b) NAT traversal mechanisms for H.323 multimedia systems shall > >> support no less than ITU-T H.323v3, H.245v7, H.225.0v4, and H.235v3. > >> All later versions of H.323, H.245, H.225.0 and H.235 may be > >> supported. > >> ---------- > >> > >> Take an example of H.323 that has now v6. Which of the following > >> statements are true? > >> > >> NAT traversal > >> > >> 1/ shall not support v1 or v2. > >> 2/ may support v1 or v2. > >> 3/ shall support v3. > >> 4/ shall support v3 and in addition may support any combinations of > >> v4, v5 and v6. > >> 5/ shall support v3 and may support v4, or (v4 and v5), or (v4, v5 > >> and v6). > >> > >> In other words, NAT traversal with the following support conforms to > >> this requirement: > >> > >> a/ v3 > >> b/ v4 > >> c/ v5 > >> d/ v6 > >> e/ v3, v4 > >> f/ v3, v5 > >> g/ v3, v6 > >> h/ v3, v4, v5 > >> i/ v3, v4, v5, v6 > >> j/ v4, v5 > >> k/ v4, v6 > >> l/ v4, v5, v6 > >> m/ v5, v6 > >> > >> -- > >> Best regards, > >> > >> OKUBO Sakae > >> e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp > >> (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) Visiting > >> Professor Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) > >> Waseda University > >> ****************************************************************** > >> Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 > >> 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 > >> 239-0847 Japan > >> H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice > >> ****************************************************************** > >. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > cathy jiang > jiangxiaolin(a)mail.ritt.com.cn > 2006-08-22

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RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement
by Kevin Boyle 22 Aug '06

22 Aug '06

>From my reading of this, the system requires at least H.323v3. H.323v1 and v2 are inadequate. Note that the other specs are subject to different version requirements: H.245 must be at least v7, for example. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: cathy jiang [mailto:jiangxiaolin@mail.ritt.com.cn] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:19 AM To: OKUBO Sakae Subject: RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement Mr.Okubo, >From this sentence you quoted, it means that NAT/FW traversal schemes should consider at least V3 and also should have the abilities to adapt to the later versions, i.e. v4,v5 and v6. There might have some legacy networks deployed with h.323 v1/v2 which should be taken into cosideration of NAT/FW traversal.But it was not implied here that NAT/FW traversal MUST support v1/v2. Best Xiaolin ======= At 2006-08-22, 16:25:30 you wrote: ======= >Mr. Okubo, > >This statement is there since the in order to allow solutions that will >require the extensibility framework and generic parameters defined only >from those versions. >This means that any version from this version and above will work. It >also means that NAT traversal may work with older systems using other >NAT traversal mechanisms like Session Border Controllers or ALGs > >Roni Even > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: OKUBO Sakae [mailto:okubo@MXZ.MESH.NE.JP] >> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:10 AM >> To: itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com >> Subject: Question on a NAT traversal requirement >> >> Dear NAT traversal experts, >> >> TTC (The Telecommunication Technology Committee) is now working on >> Technical Paper "Requirements for Network Address Translator and >> Firewall Traversal of H.323 Multimedia Systems" to convert it to a >> Technical Report in Japanese language. >> >> I have a question on how to interpret the following part: >> >> ---------- >> 9.3 Requirements on Signalling and Media Streams >> b) NAT traversal mechanisms for H.323 multimedia systems shall >> support no less than ITU-T H.323v3, H.245v7, H.225.0v4, and H.235v3. >> All later versions of H.323, H.245, H.225.0 and H.235 may be >> supported. >> ---------- >> >> Take an example of H.323 that has now v6. Which of the following >> statements are true? >> >> NAT traversal >> >> 1/ shall not support v1 or v2. >> 2/ may support v1 or v2. >> 3/ shall support v3. >> 4/ shall support v3 and in addition may support any combinations of >> v4, v5 and v6. >> 5/ shall support v3 and may support v4, or (v4 and v5), or (v4, v5 >> and v6). >> >> In other words, NAT traversal with the following support conforms to >> this requirement: >> >> a/ v3 >> b/ v4 >> c/ v5 >> d/ v6 >> e/ v3, v4 >> f/ v3, v5 >> g/ v3, v6 >> h/ v3, v4, v5 >> i/ v3, v4, v5, v6 >> j/ v4, v5 >> k/ v4, v6 >> l/ v4, v5, v6 >> m/ v5, v6 >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> >> OKUBO Sakae >> e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp >> (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) Visiting >> Professor Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) >> Waseda University >> ****************************************************************** >> Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 >> 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 >> 239-0847 Japan >> H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice >> ****************************************************************** >. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = cathy jiang jiangxiaolin(a)mail.ritt.com.cn 2006-08-22

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RE: Question on a NAT traversal requirement
by Even, Roni 22 Aug '06

22 Aug '06

Mr. Okubo, This statement is there since the in order to allow solutions that will require the extensibility framework and generic parameters defined only from those versions. This means that any version from this version and above will work. It also means that NAT traversal may work with older systems using other NAT traversal mechanisms like Session Border Controllers or ALGs Roni Even > -----Original Message----- > From: OKUBO Sakae [mailto:okubo@MXZ.MESH.NE.JP] > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:10 AM > To: itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > Subject: Question on a NAT traversal requirement > > Dear NAT traversal experts, > > TTC (The Telecommunication Technology Committee) is now working on > Technical Paper "Requirements for Network Address Translator and > Firewall Traversal of H.323 Multimedia Systems" to convert it to a > Technical Report in Japanese language. > > I have a question on how to interpret the following part: > > ---------- > 9.3 Requirements on Signalling and Media Streams > b) NAT traversal mechanisms for H.323 multimedia systems shall > support no less than ITU-T H.323v3, H.245v7, H.225.0v4, and H.235v3. > All later versions of H.323, H.245, H.225.0 and H.235 may be > supported. > ---------- > > Take an example of H.323 that has now v6. Which of the following > statements are true? > > NAT traversal > > 1/ shall not support v1 or v2. > 2/ may support v1 or v2. > 3/ shall support v3. > 4/ shall support v3 and in addition may support any combinations of > v4, v5 and v6. > 5/ shall support v3 and may support v4, or (v4 and v5), or (v4, v5 and > v6). > > In other words, NAT traversal with the following support conforms to > this requirement: > > a/ v3 > b/ v4 > c/ v5 > d/ v6 > e/ v3, v4 > f/ v3, v5 > g/ v3, v6 > h/ v3, v4, v5 > i/ v3, v4, v5, v6 > j/ v4, v5 > k/ v4, v6 > l/ v4, v5, v6 > m/ v5, v6 > > -- > Best regards, > > OKUBO Sakae > e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp > (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) > Visiting Professor > Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) > Waseda University > ****************************************************************** > Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 > 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 > 239-0847 Japan > H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice > ******************************************************************

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Question on a NAT traversal requirement
by OKUBO Sakae 22 Aug '06

22 Aug '06

Dear NAT traversal experts, TTC (The Telecommunication Technology Committee) is now working on Technical Paper "Requirements for Network Address Translator and Firewall Traversal of H.323 Multimedia Systems" to convert it to a Technical Report in Japanese language. I have a question on how to interpret the following part: ---------- 9.3 Requirements on Signalling and Media Streams b) NAT traversal mechanisms for H.323 multimedia systems shall support no less than ITU-T H.323v3, H.245v7, H.225.0v4, and H.235v3. All later versions of H.323, H.245, H.225.0 and H.235 may be supported. ---------- Take an example of H.323 that has now v6. Which of the following statements are true? NAT traversal 1/ shall not support v1 or v2. 2/ may support v1 or v2. 3/ shall support v3. 4/ shall support v3 and in addition may support any combinations of v4, v5 and v6. 5/ shall support v3 and may support v4, or (v4 and v5), or (v4, v5 and v6). In other words, NAT traversal with the following support conforms to this requirement: a/ v3 b/ v4 c/ v5 d/ v6 e/ v3, v4 f/ v3, v5 g/ v3, v6 h/ v3, v4, v5 i/ v3, v4, v5, v6 j/ v4, v5 k/ v4, v6 l/ v4, v5, v6 m/ v5, v6 -- Best regards, OKUBO Sakae e-mail: okubo(a)aoni.waseda.jp (<== sokubo(a)waseda.jp, valid until 31 March 2007) Visiting Professor Global Information and Telecommunication Institute (GITI) Waseda University ****************************************************************** Waseda University, YRP Ichibankan 312 Tel: +81 46 847 5406 3-4 Hikarinooka, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken Fax: +81 46 847 5413 239-0847 Japan H.323 videoconferencing: arranged by advice ******************************************************************

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RE: Document number allocation request
by Paul E. Jones 22 Aug '06

22 Aug '06

Ishikawa-san, You're welcome. Yes, I will be there. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Ishikawa, Chiaki [mailto:chiaki.ishikawa@ubin.jp] > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 11:29 PM > To: Paul E. Jones > Cc: 'Ishikawa, Chiaki'; youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp; 'Noboru Koshizuka'; > itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > Subject: Re: Document number allocation request > > Dear Mr. Paul E. Jones, > > Thank you for your kind editing work. > > Looking forward to meeting you in Ottawa. > (You will be there, right?) > > Sincerely, > Chiaki Ishikawa > > Paul E. Jones wrote: > > Ishikawa-san, > > > > I have uploaded the document as AVD-2935a.zip. > > > > I accepted all of the changes appearing in revision marks. I edited the > > contact footer so that it only appears on the first page. I also edited > the > > contact lines so that the word "Contact" does not appear on each line. > > > > Paul > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Ishikawa, Chiaki [mailto:chiaki.ishikawa@ubin.jp] > >>Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:49 PM > >>To: Paul E. Jones > >>Cc: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp; 'Noboru Koshizuka'; 'Ishikawa, Chiaki'; > >>itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > >>Subject: Re: Document number allocation request > >> > >> > >>Dear Paul E. Jones, > >> > >>We have made a few last minute changes (fixing typos, misspells, etc.) > >>to the document which was submitted a few hours ago. > >>I uploaded a file to the ftp site. > >>So please use the latest file uploaded to the ftp site. > >>(We may still make another change or two. Catching English mistakes > >>is difficult for non-native English speakers.) > >> > >>Thank you in advance for your attention. > >> > >>Sincerely, > >>Chiaki Ishikawa > >> > >>Paul E. Jones wrote: > >> > >>>Takashima-san, > >>> > >>>Please use AVD-2935. > >>> > >>>Thanks! > >>>Paul > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>From: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp [mailto:youichi.takashima@ubin.jp] > >>>>Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:33 AM > >>>>To: Paul Jones > >>>>Cc: Noboru Koshizuka; Ishikawa, Chiaki > >>>>Subject: Document number allocation request > >>>> > >>>>Dear Paul, > >>>> > >>>>Could you allocate a document number to the following contribution? > >>>> > >>>>Source: YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory > >>>>Title: Analysis of Information Delivery Applications using Networked > ID > >>>>Question: 22 > >>>> > >>>>This is a "proposal" document. > >>>> > >>>>Best regards, > >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>Youichi TAKASHIMA > >>>>YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory > >>>>Phone +81 3 5437 2270 > >>>>Facsimile +81 3 5437 2329 > >>>>2-20-1 Nishi-Gotanda, Shinagawa-ku, Tokyo 141-0031 JAPAN > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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Re: Document number allocation request
by Ishikawa, Chiaki 21 Aug '06

21 Aug '06

Dear Mr. Paul E. Jones, Thank you for your kind editing work. Looking forward to meeting you in Ottawa. (You will be there, right?) Sincerely, Chiaki Ishikawa Paul E. Jones wrote: > Ishikawa-san, > > I have uploaded the document as AVD-2935a.zip. > > I accepted all of the changes appearing in revision marks. I edited the > contact footer so that it only appears on the first page. I also edited the > contact lines so that the word "Contact" does not appear on each line. > > Paul > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Ishikawa, Chiaki [mailto:chiaki.ishikawa@ubin.jp] >>Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:49 PM >>To: Paul E. Jones >>Cc: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp; 'Noboru Koshizuka'; 'Ishikawa, Chiaki'; >>itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com >>Subject: Re: Document number allocation request >> >> >>Dear Paul E. Jones, >> >>We have made a few last minute changes (fixing typos, misspells, etc.) >>to the document which was submitted a few hours ago. >>I uploaded a file to the ftp site. >>So please use the latest file uploaded to the ftp site. >>(We may still make another change or two. Catching English mistakes >>is difficult for non-native English speakers.) >> >>Thank you in advance for your attention. >> >>Sincerely, >>Chiaki Ishikawa >> >>Paul E. Jones wrote: >> >>>Takashima-san, >>> >>>Please use AVD-2935. >>> >>>Thanks! >>>Paul >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp [mailto:youichi.takashima@ubin.jp] >>>>Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:33 AM >>>>To: Paul Jones >>>>Cc: Noboru Koshizuka; Ishikawa, Chiaki >>>>Subject: Document number allocation request >>>> >>>>Dear Paul, >>>> >>>>Could you allocate a document number to the following contribution? >>>> >>>>Source: YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory >>>>Title: Analysis of Information Delivery Applications using Networked ID >>>>Question: 22 >>>> >>>>This is a "proposal" document. >>>> >>>>Best regards, >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>Youichi TAKASHIMA >>>>YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory >>>>Phone +81 3 5437 2270 >>>>Facsimile +81 3 5437 2329 >>>>2-20-1 Nishi-Gotanda, Shinagawa-ku, Tokyo 141-0031 JAPAN >>>> >>>> >>> > > > > > > >

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RE: Document number allocation request
by Paul E. Jones 21 Aug '06

21 Aug '06

Ishikawa-san, I have uploaded the document as AVD-2935a.zip. I accepted all of the changes appearing in revision marks. I edited the contact footer so that it only appears on the first page. I also edited the contact lines so that the word "Contact" does not appear on each line. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Ishikawa, Chiaki [mailto:chiaki.ishikawa@ubin.jp] > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:49 PM > To: Paul E. Jones > Cc: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp; 'Noboru Koshizuka'; 'Ishikawa, Chiaki'; > itu-sg16(a)external.cisco.com > Subject: Re: Document number allocation request > > > Dear Paul E. Jones, > > We have made a few last minute changes (fixing typos, misspells, etc.) > to the document which was submitted a few hours ago. > I uploaded a file to the ftp site. > So please use the latest file uploaded to the ftp site. > (We may still make another change or two. Catching English mistakes > is difficult for non-native English speakers.) > > Thank you in advance for your attention. > > Sincerely, > Chiaki Ishikawa > > Paul E. Jones wrote: > > Takashima-san, > > > > Please use AVD-2935. > > > > Thanks! > > Paul > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp [mailto:youichi.takashima@ubin.jp] > >>Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:33 AM > >>To: Paul Jones > >>Cc: Noboru Koshizuka; Ishikawa, Chiaki > >>Subject: Document number allocation request > >> > >>Dear Paul, > >> > >>Could you allocate a document number to the following contribution? > >> > >>Source: YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory > >>Title: Analysis of Information Delivery Applications using Networked ID > >>Question: 22 > >> > >>This is a "proposal" document. > >> > >>Best regards, > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Youichi TAKASHIMA > >>YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory > >>Phone +81 3 5437 2270 > >>Facsimile +81 3 5437 2329 > >>2-20-1 Nishi-Gotanda, Shinagawa-ku, Tokyo 141-0031 JAPAN > >> > >> > > >

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Re: Document number allocation request
by Ishikawa, Chiaki 21 Aug '06

21 Aug '06

Dear Paul E. Jones, We have made a few last minute changes (fixing typos, misspells, etc.) to the document which was submitted a few hours ago. I uploaded a file to the ftp site. So please use the latest file uploaded to the ftp site. (We may still make another change or two. Catching English mistakes is difficult for non-native English speakers.) Thank you in advance for your attention. Sincerely, Chiaki Ishikawa Paul E. Jones wrote: > Takashima-san, > > Please use AVD-2935. > > Thanks! > Paul > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: youichi.takashima(a)ubin.jp [mailto:youichi.takashima@ubin.jp] >>Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:33 AM >>To: Paul Jones >>Cc: Noboru Koshizuka; Ishikawa, Chiaki >>Subject: Document number allocation request >> >>Dear Paul, >> >>Could you allocate a document number to the following contribution? >> >>Source: YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory >>Title: Analysis of Information Delivery Applications using Networked ID >>Question: 22 >> >>This is a "proposal" document. >> >>Best regards, >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Youichi TAKASHIMA >>YRP Ubiquitous Networking Laboratory >>Phone +81 3 5437 2270 >>Facsimile +81 3 5437 2329 >>2-20-1 Nishi-Gotanda, Shinagawa-ku, Tokyo 141-0031 JAPAN >> >> >

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Re: Document number requests
by Albrecht.Schwarz＠alcatel.de 21 Aug '06

21 Aug '06

Paul, fyi, all Alcatel contributions are uploaded with exception of AVD-2918 & AVD-2925 ("they will be late contributions"). There is furthermore a 2nd edition of following AVDs: (Embedded image moved to file: pic17543.pcx) ["The 2nd edition was necessary because I missed the "error clause" in package definitions.] - Albrecht

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Contribution AVD-2874 to Q.5 uploaded
by Patrick Luthi 21 Aug '06

21 Aug '06

Dear experts, I have just uploaded our contribution AVD-2874 to Q.5 to the incoming directory. It is titled: Proposed clarifications to the scope of proposed draft H.proxy. See you in Ottawa! Best regards, Patrick

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List of contributions for the Ottawa meeting of Q.1/16
by Patrick Luthi 20 Aug '06

20 Aug '06

Dear Q.1/16 experts, The deadline to register contributions was last night at 23.59 and this is the current list of registered contributions for the Ottawa meeting (29-31 August 2006). The deadline for submitting your contributions is 23:59 UTC on Tuesday 22 August 2006. The documents will be available through this URL: http://ftp3.itu.int/av-arch/lbc-site/0608_Ottawa/ Please advise me if your contribution is not listed here: Q1-F00 Q1/16 Rapporteur List of Documents for Meeting F of the ITU-T SG16 Q.1 Experts Group Q1-F01 Nortel Invitation for Questions 1,2,3,4,5,21,22,24,25,29 Experts Group in Ottawa, Canada --> Ott_Invitation.doc Q1-F02 Q1/16 Rapporteur Meeting announcement for Meeting F of Q.1/16 Experts Ottawa, Canada, 29-31 August 2006 Q1-F03 Q1/16 Rapporteur Meeting report of Working Party 2 of ITU-T Study Group 16, Geneva, 3-13 April 2006 Q1-F04 AHG Chair Report of the H.324 text conversation Ad-hoc Group Q1-F05 Editors Draft new H.gamma Q1-F06 Editor Draft new H.324 Annex Text Conversation Q1-F07 Editor Draft revised T.120 Q1-F08 Editor Draft revised T.123 Q1-F09 France Telecom Videotelephony Requirements Q1-F10 Polycom Comments on Videotelephony Requirements Q1-F11 NEC Comments and proposed clarifications to H.324 Annex K Q1-F12 PacketVideo H.324 Annex K - Some issues for discussion I am looking forward meeting with you in Ottawa next week. Best regards, Patrick Luthi Rapporteur for Q.1/16

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List of contributions for the Ottawa meeting of Q.1/16
by Patrick Luthi 20 Aug '06

20 Aug '06

Dear Q.1/16 experts, The deadline to register contributions was last night at 23.59 and this is the current list of registered contributions for the Ottawa meeting (29-31 August 2006). The deadline for submitting your contributions is 23:59 UTC on Tuesday 22 August 2006. The documents will be available through this URL: http://ftp3.itu.int/av-arch/lbc-site/0608_Ottawa/ Please advise me if your contribution is not listed here: Q1-F00 Q1/16 Rapporteur List of Documents for Meeting F of the ITU-T SG16 Q.1 Experts Group Q1-F01 Nortel Invitation for Questions 1,2,3,4,5,21,22,24,25,29 Experts Group in Ottawa, Canada --> Ott_Invitation.doc Q1-F02 Q1/16 Rapporteur Meeting announcement for Meeting F of Q.1/16 Experts Ottawa, Canada, 29-31 August 2006 Q1-F03 Q1/16 Rapporteur Meeting report of Working Party 2 of ITU-T Study Group 16, Geneva, 3-13 April 2006 Q1-F04 AHG Chair Report of the H.324 text conversation Ad-hoc Group Q1-F05 Editors Draft new H.gamma Q1-F06 Editor Draft new H.324 Annex Text Conversation Q1-F07 Editor Draft revised T.120 Q1-F08 Editor Draft revised T.123 Q1-F09 France Telecom Videotelephony Requirements Q1-F10 Polycom Comments on Videotelephony Requirements Q1-F11 NEC Comments and proposed clarifications to H.324 Annex K Q1-F12 PacketVideo H.324 Annex K - Some issues for discussion I am looking forward meeting with you in Ottawa next week. Best regards, Patrick Luthi Rapporteur for Q.1/16

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Document numbers allocated
by Paul E. Jones 19 Aug '06

19 Aug '06

Dear Experts, I have assigned all document numbers to those who have requested numbers. If you sent an e-mail requesting a number, but did not get a reply, please re-submit your request. We presently have more than 100 documents registered for this meeting, so we will be quite busy during this meeting. I will get a final document list posted within 36 hours. I will post all of the documents I have received either via e-mail or via the FTP server this weekend. All other documents will be posted within 24 hours, so all documents should be posted by Tuesday morning in Asia. I have a couple of incoming liaison statements that may be a little delayed, but I'll try to get those posted as soon as possible. Paul

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RE: 1 more; RE: Further numbers; Re: Document number requests
by Paul E. Jones 19 Aug '06

19 Aug '06

Albrecht, Please use AVD-2940. Thanks! Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Albrecht.Schwarz(a)alcatel.de [mailto:Albrecht.Schwarz@alcatel.de] > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 9:31 AM > To: Paul E. Jones > Subject: 1 more; RE: Further numbers; Re: Document number requests > > > Paul, > > we got a last Alcatel contribution: > > AVD-29xx "H.Sup7.CtrlAssoc ?§ 6.2.3 ServiceChange.reply inclusive > ServiceChangeMgcID" > > Thanks > Albrecht

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RE: Request for Document Number AVD-nnnn allocation in ITU-T SG16 WP2 Expert Meeting
by Paul E. Jones 19 Aug '06

19 Aug '06

Kang, Please use AVD-2938 and AVD-2939 for the documents as you have them listed. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: ??? [mailto:tgkang@etri.re.kr] > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 7:03 AM > To: paulej(a)packetizer.com > Cc: ??? > Subject: Request for Document Number AVD-nnnn allocation in ITU-T SG16 WP2 > Expert Meeting > > Hello, > > I would like to send you two document titles for their Document Number > AVD-nnnn allocation. > > 1. Document AVD-xxxx, > Title: A Proposal on Codec Negotiation across Multiple Networks for > End-to-End QoS > Question: 24/16 > Source: ETRI > > 2. Document AVD-yyyy, > Title: A Proposal on Veriable Codec Bit Rates Control for End-to-End > QoS > Question: 24/16 > Source: ETRI > > Please, could you allocate the two documents number(AVD-xxxx and AVD-yyyy) > for me ? > > with best regards > > Kang > ---------------------------------- > ETRI, Multimedia Communications Team > BcN Core Technology Group > Broadband Convergence Network Research Division > Principal Member of Engineering Staff > Ph.D, Professional Engineer > Kang Tae-Gyu > tgkang(a)etri.re.kr <mailto:tgkang@etri.re.kr> > +82-42-860-5232, FAX:+82-42-860-5440, 016-451-2968 > ---------------------------------- >

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