Re: Pete Cordell's FastStart issues
Might I suggest that this discussion be broadened to include the ITU-SG16 reflector instead of sending a long list of recipients each time?
-----Original Message----- From: Pete Cordell [SMTP:pete.cordell@bt-sys.bt.co.uk] Sent: Monday, December 08, 1997 9:16 AM To: 'pete.cordell@bt-sys.bt.co.uk'; 'Narjala_Bhasker@ccm.jf.intel.com'; 'Vineet_Kumar@ccm.jf.intel.com'; 'amir@radvision.rad.co.il'; 'gthom@DELTA-INFO.COM'; 'lindbergh@pictel.com'; 'reid@pictel.com'; 'Scott_Petrack@VOCALTEC.COM'; 'okubo@gctech.co.jp'; Toby Nixon; Steve Liffick; 'karl.klaghofer@MCH.PN.SIEMENS.DE'; 'amotz@radvision.rad.co.il'; 'sebes@PNSTA1.ZFE.SIEMENS.DE'; 'dskran@ascend.com'; 'nstarkey@databeam.com'; 'Robert.Callaghan@SIEMENSCOM.COM'; 'gkajos@videoserver.com'; 'ggf@lucent.com'; 'jeff@pictel.com'; 'john.boucher@bt-sys.bt.co.uk'; 'gkisor@ideal.jf.intel.com'; 'reinhard.scholl@oen.siemens.de'; 'ofer@radvision.rad.co.il'; 'nilsson_m_e@bt-web.bt.co.uk'; 'helmut.schink@oen.siemens.de'; 'roni_e@accord.co.il'; 'gfargo@intecom.com'; 'adfranklin@lucent.com'; 'Jim Toga' Subject: RE: Pete Cordell's FastStart issues
Jim et al.,
I'm glad we've got a discussion going on this. This seems to be a really big issue that can have a major impact on the future of H.323. I know we're all really busy, but come January we will be stuck with what ever we decide, so I'm hoping that other people can jump in here to thrash out the issues as much as possible. The more input, the better the solution is likely to be.
I've put comments in below. From the comments presented though I don't think we are on the same wavelength yet, so most of the comments are related to the problem space rather than any solutions.
Pete
Pete Cordell BT Labs E-Mail: pete.cordell@bt-sys.bt.co.uk Tel: +44 1473 646436 Fax: +44 1473 645499 =================================
From: Jim Toga[SMTP:jtoga@ideal.jf.intel.com] Sent: 07 December 1997 19:18 To: pete.cordell@bt-sys.bt.co.uk; Narjala_Bhasker@ccm.jf.intel.com; Vineet_Kumar@ccm.jf.intel.com; amir@radvision.rad.co.il; gthom@DELTA-INFO.COM; lindbergh@pictel.com; reid@pictel.com; Scott_Petrack@VOCALTEC.COM; okubo@gctech.co.jp; tnixon@MICROSOFT.COM; stevel@MICROSOFT.COM; karl.klaghofer@MCH.PN.SIEMENS.DE; amotz@radvision.rad.co.il; sebes@PNSTA1.ZFE.SIEMENS.DE; dskran@ascend.com; nstarkey@databeam.com; Robert.Callaghan@SIEMENSCOM.COM; gkajos@videoserver.com; ggf@lucent.com; jeff@pictel.com; john.boucher@bt-sys.bt.co.uk; gkisor@ideal.jf.intel.com; reinhard.scholl@oen.siemens.de; ofer@radvision.rad.co.il; nilsson_m_e@bt-web.bt.co.uk; helmut.schink@oen.siemens.de; roni_e@accord.co.il; gfargo@intecom.com; adfranklin@lucent.com Cc: jtoga@ideal.jf.intel.com Subject: Re:Pete Cordell's FastStart issues
Pete, (and others)
Let me try and respond to your issues and hopefully we can resolve this in a relatively concise manner. Before we get started though I would like to make a couple of points clear:
Recall that the "fast start" problem as stated previous to the Israel meeting and formalized in the contribution to that meeting, was the following. To provide a minimal round trip time connection sequence, for simple constrained calling scenarios. The requirement was to have minmal engineering impact to current shipping products and complete backward compatability.
I've looked through my notes and I can see any authoritative, exclusive list of what the fast start should be expected to solve. I don't see anything that said it should be restricted to "simple constrained calling scenarios".
I have always been a proponent of Gatekeepers and the functionality, features, and services that they can provide.
Everyone (including you), supported the final version of FastStart which came out SunRiver with the additions of bi-directional capabilities. With the presentation of your alternative approach there was never any clear motivation for developing the more complicated version other than you 'didn't like' the current form. I'm happy to see you've presented a real issue to which you would like a solution.
I would like codify my understanding of your issues and see if we can find a solution to them. I _think _you imply the need for a low overhead 'mode switch' which really has nothing to do with FastStart, but let me see if I understand your points.
To me connection setup (i.e. user-to-user connection) is pretty much all that H.323 is about. Once a connection is setup there is little more for H.323 to do, other than tear-down.
At 03:58 PM 12/5/97 -0000, Pete Cordell wrote: [SNIP]
Each user has an account on the system. They can use it as a single number by which to contact them by. As you move from
office to home to mobile,
you configure it using a web browser with the number to contact you on. People trying to contact you dial a single number and the platform forwards the call to the correct
location.
It also allows people to leave voice messages on the system. Additionally you can configure it to do things like try the office phone first, then the mobile and if that doesn't work leave a message. This sort of flexibility is not easily addressed by a directory. It can also receive e-mails and faxes etc.
[SNIP]
This is admittedly not rocket science, and you've probably come across services like this already. Our job is to move this to the IP world.
Why can't you can accomplish this today (in R2) with the multiple alias registrations (that fact that you may use WEB front end is irrelevent)? The Gatekeeper then has his 'rotary switch' of locations to look through to find the current active location. This is much like (if not exactly) VocalTec's CMA architecture.
Your right, the configuration side of things is not the issue.
Product Impact
To understand the impact of this on the protocol, let's look at the case of using a search algorithm to look for a user and also returning a call after interrogating the voice bank.
Tying user-network signalling to network-network signalling in the protocol is bad practice, limiting and cumbersome.
I agree, network-network signalling is for another day. However this issue is very much in the user-network signalling area. The issues remain even if only one gatekeeper is involved (which hopefully implies that there is no network-network signalling).
Let's assume the system is configured to contact my work number first and them my mobile number. In this case the final connected endpoint is
not known until the CONNECT message is received. Hence the capabilities of the endpoint you will be talking to are not known for sure until you get CONNECT.
I see this, and agree it is entirely true. It has no effect however on the the capabilities of the _calling_ party. They _are_ known, and there is no reason why the possibile capabilities should change.
Correct
This is not a problem with the basic call setup sequence as the H.245 is
not established until after CONNECT.
This is not quite true. There has been the ability (since 3/96) to start H.245 at any point after the SETUP message is received. This required two things, which by the way would be required in all of these scenarios.
The caller and callee has to be able to deal with H.245 and possibly media, 'early'. The caller has to place the H.245 port in the Setup message. (Alternatively the callee can place the H.245 port in the Call Proceeding/Alerting message)
True, but hopefully you'll agree with me that in this case the gatekeeper could delete any H.245 addresses from messages other than CONNECT and it would get the desired behaviour. This seems to be a pretty NULL operation as nobody seems to be sending H.245 addresses in messages other than connect anyway.
However, with fast connect we want to start capability negotiation as soon as possible, and are not able to wait until CONNECT.
The Determined version of FastStart DOES do a full capability exchange before the CONNECT. (althought it does not provide for an iterative _negototiation_, as this defeats the Fast portion of FastStart).
I have problems with saying the FastStart shall be 1 round trip or bust. The intent seems to have been that a minimum of round trips should be used compatible with negotiation, security etc. If a particular case requires an extra round trip, then that is the minimum number of round trips that case can be set up in. That doesn't break fastStart. I would say it's good because it has meant that we don't fall back to the 6 1/2 round trips that we typically need.
This also has the benefits that we can listen to announcements prior to
the CONNECT >message (such as "The
number you have dialled has > changed, but we are re-routing you
anyway").
This is EXACTLY what FastStart provides as soon as the Setup is recieved, the recipient may start playing media back to the caller. The caller may be constrained from sending media to the callee until the Connect is received - just as it works in the circuit world.
I was trying to capture the issues here, not saying that the current fast start doesn't meet any of them. Basically we have conflicting requirements here 1) we want to establish media prior to CONNECT to allow announcements, 2) we want to delay establishing media until after CONNECT so that the gatekeeper can do some intelligent stuff. This is what makes this topic so interesting!!!!
However, if the system gives up ringing my work number and then tries the mobile number, it has to present a new set of capabilities to the
calling endpoint.
That is true, and this can occur by simply sending another Call Proceeding message (or Alerting) with the new caps. There is no need however for the _caller_ change or otherwise resend its caps..... In other words the Gatekeeper will still be presenting the same set to the subsequent callees as it polls them.
You're right that the caller does not have to generate new caps. However, sending multiple CALL PROCEEDINGs or ALERTINGs to an endpoint breaks H.225, and so would not be backwards compatible.
Now I'm in the mode of interrogating the voice messages that have been left for me. My endpoint is connected to the sub-system that plays out
the recorded
messages and it asks me if I want to return the call. To do this the system needs to create an outgoing call, and locally generate a ringing tone. When the remote party answers the two
endpoints need
to be connected together.
This is either some form of a transfer (from a protocol point of view) or shouldn't it be hidden from the endpoint in terms of signalling?
In a distributed world there is only so much that you can hide from an endpoint. That's why this topic is so important. To roll out customer friendly services the endpoints need to support some basic capabilities. Hopefully this is worth endpoint vendors doing as useful services mean that people can use there endpoints for more things. Thus the technology is more likely to catch on, than if you are only likely to get reasonable service from a call centre via good old POTS.
You may say that the FACILITY message could be used to do this.
However,
the caller has state stored
in the platform/gatekeeper (such as where they are in the menus etc.) so
that when they finish this new
call they can go back to interrogating their messages. This would not
be
possible with the
FACILITY approach.
It would seem that exposing this bookkeeping/signalling would require a _large_ commitment on the part of all the endpoint manufacturers - wouldn't it be better to provide this in an 'invisible' way? Aside from the complexity/compatibiliy issues it provides for product differentiation.
I think you're agreeing with me that the FACILITY way is a bad way to go.
WOW that's complicated!!!
At first sight this appears horrendous, but in actual fact it is quite simple. All it requires is for the platform/gatekeeper to be able to
break connections and re-establish
new connections when it wants to.
AAHHH.... so this is what you wanted! This _does_ seem like a 'transfer' type of thing, in any case it would appear to be independant of FastStart.
A setup is almost invariably part of transfer, so I don't see that you can call them independent. Anyway, the report from Hertzliya says support for supplementary services should be included in fast setup.
I have to admit, I'm not sure what you mean by 'connection' though. Is this simply logical media channels, or is it a larger concept?
I'm really mean establishing some sort of media exchange between users such as audio or video.
[SNIP]
So where's the problem
The problem is that I can not make use of the fast setup scheme with these services, because it does not support the break and make
capability.
This is _new_ functionality that was never listed as a requirement of FastStart, and I would argue that 'breaking and making connections' goes against the scope of the FastStart usefulness.
This is where I totally disagree. The list of fast start requirements was never exclusive. We announced our requirements for fast start and no body objected to them, and some even backed them up. If you had objections you should have raised them at the time.
To do these services I need tofall back to H.245. If the standard setup is not good enough for a basic point-to-point call then it is not good enough for entities that introduce intelligence which in
fact have more stringent timing
requirements because the breaks and makes are more difficult to conceal
under things like ringing.
The 'standard setup' is no way "not good enough" for basic point-to-point operation. It simply as case that in certain well defined (resources and entities known) that optimizations can and should be made to operate in simple low delay environments.
Assuming that the reason for implementing the gatekeeper routed model is
to add these sorts of features, then
really the gatekeeper routed model becomes a second class citizen. This
is a problem for us.
The Gatekeeper should most definitely NOT be constrained from adding features and providing expanded services. The Gatekeeper routed model was specifically developed to hide this complexities from the endpoints, in fact the endpoint cannot even tell which mode it is running in other than a bit in the ACF.
The Gatekeeper is no more or less a "second class citizen" with FastStart as with the 'standard' signaling. In fact I believe that it has even more control, because it may provide an asymmetrical connection on either side of itself forcing either the caller or callee into a particular mode of operation.
If the standard startup is good enough then we seem to be taking elaborate measures to tune the efficiency of the "standard setup". Either the standard setup is good enough or it isn't. If it is good enough then we don't need fast start. I happen to think that it is not good enough. Hence we need a solution that is good enough for the basic call model and is also good enough for those of us that want to add value. If we don't achieve this, then as far as I can see the gatekeeper routed model can only become a second class citizen.
Where to go next
To do what I need to do, I need a fast method for making and breaking connections without first establishing the TCP connection, negotiating
caps, MSD, OLC, OLC ACK,
and then sending media. We could achieve this by adding a break command
to the FACILITY message and >then having the ability to send new fastCaps at any time to make a new connection. This seems a minimal
change from where we are at the moment and such a change would be fine
by
me.
Again I'm not clear on what you mean by 'connections', but assuming that you mean something like an audio channel (say 711-->723.1) than I think there are a number of fine options we can pursue. (for example H.245 has established a 're-open' command.)
However, I know that Glen is interested in always running an MC, so he would want to add extra features. Others will probably also want
features
that have been carefully crafted
into H.245. As a result we are likely to get feature creep so that more
and more H.245 functionality is
put into H.225.
I completely agree that it would be a very bad thing to re-invent H.245 within H.225.0.
I also have concerns about having two ways and two APIs (fast and slow)
for doing
things. This explains my attempt to re-use as much of H.245 as
possible.
To pick a nit, we're not talking about API's; there is one way within the protocol to establish an H.245 connection. If you need these features, flexibility and control; this is what you should do. That being said there are two forms of Setup/Connect messages for those Endpoints/Gatekeepers/MCUs that would like to utilize them.
To pick more nits ( :-) ), we at some point have to build what we propose. Therefore, we can not conceive of protocols in isolation of how we will build them. If one protocol idea is easier to develop than another then we should go with that one. So although the ITU is not bothered with APIs, we as contributors, should be.
Most stacks that I am aware of separate out the Q.931 part and the H.245 part. At the moment the H.245 part knows about caps and the Q.931 part does not. To put caps in Q.931 we need to put an API on the Q.931 part that accepts caps. Therefore we really do have two APIs, which is an issue.
But let me reassure you I have no requirement to use H.245! I have a requirement to solve the problem presented above.
The problem is to 'break and make' connections with minimal overhead?.....
Yep
A little history
[SNIP].
The issues raised here are hopefully covered off elsewhere.
To sum up
To differentiate I want to add intelligence to my platform (effectively a gatekeeper). If I can't use fast setup as part of this people will
either use the direct call model,
or use dumb gatekeepers. Basically the gatekeeper routed model will
loose
out.
Nothing you have described so far is either helped or hindered by FastStart, this point is completely irrelevent. As I said above, Intel has always believed in the value of Gatekeepers to H.323 systems. I'm surprised that you didn't present a contribution to provide lightweight 'connection switching' in a general manner.
The point really is that it has not helped......
Hence I need fast setup to be useful for a gatekeeper adding
intelligence,
which basically means being
able to quickly break and make connections.
This is great! If this is what you require, lets come to quick agreement on this and move on.
I have presented a solution that I believe meets these requirements. But if there is another way of meeting my requirements then I would be
only too happy to adopt it.
Here are my suggestions that I _think_ provide the functionality you desire:
I think it's important that we try to sort out the problem we are solving first. If you feel we are on the same wavelength then we can move on to the technical implementation, but I don't think we are quite there yet. I hope this has helped. Besides, I would also like more time to think about what you have proposed.
[SNIPPED, but not forgotten]
Does this solve your issues?
This is a good start and I'm confident that in a few rounds we can get there. Thanks for the time you've put into this Jim. You may not thank me now, but I'm sure that in a few years you (or your company) will thank me for bringing this all up!!!! (well say 10 years. Or not more than 20 years. Well not much more than 20 years....)
Best Regards, jimt.
Pete
*** +1-503-264-8816(voice) +1-503-264-3485(fax)
*** jtoga@ibeam.intel.com Intel - Hillsboro, OR.
*** PGP keyID 36 07 86 49 7D 74 DF 57 50 CB BA 32 08 9C 7C 41***
participants (1)
-
Toby Nixon