Folks,
I agree that the goal of a standards body is to create specifications to allow interoperability. However, this is "delicate" territory. This work is not similar to creating a new annex to H.246 wherein the ITU specifies interoperability between various systems or protocols defined elsewhere in the ITU. This work involves describing how to interwork an ITU system with an IETF RFC.
It's not an impossible task, but one that may lead to tremendous debate. It is quite obvious that some members of the ITU and some members of the IETF have very basic philosophical differences. I can tell you that some members of the IETF will quickly reject anything the ITU does to standardize interoperability. I can also tell you that some of those members will also reject anything ETSI does, as well.
This is not to say that I am opposed to such an effort-- if companies support the idea, that is enough of an indication to me that people feel it's necessary and should be done. However, if we head down that path, I really believe that this should be a joint effort between the ITU and the IETF. Why? Because there are strengths and weaknesses with both protocols and one could easily introduce bias into such a specification in such a way as to highlight the strengths of one protocol and the weaknesses of the other.
And, of course, everyone here knows that H.323 is far superior to SIP, right? :-)
Again, I do not disagree with the work. However, as sad and pathetic as this statement may sound, it's true: the IETF members (especially the supporters of SIP) have little respect for the ITU and, unless we do this jointly, our lone efforts are likely to not be well received. I've already heard enough negative remarks about the efforts the ITU is undertaking (especially in SG13) to describe new Internet protocols; the claims are that "that is work the IETF does and the ITU has no business doing it".
It has already been suggested that a third party may be the better choice for such a work. Mr. Taylor mentioned that ETSI may already be doing this. Did I understand that correctly? If that's the case, and if we can get the IETF to agree to allow them to do such work, we should probably let them do the work.
Paul
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALARC" rrroy@ATT.COM To: ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.intel.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [H.323-SIP/Internet] The reason.
Hi, Everyone:
I am in full agreement with Orit. I guess that this has also been the case for many people who had been present in the SG16 meeting.
More importantly, when I talked to Glen, he clearly indicated that we
should
bring contributions to get the work started. The interworking between
H.323
and SIP may belong Q.14 (although it has to be discussed jointly with Q.13 and Q.14).
There has been a very strong interest for the work of H.323-SIP Interworking. A large number of people throughout the world (starting from the ITU-T and IETF) is contacting me.
The primary goal of the standard bodies is to provide "INTEROPERABILITY."
Best regards, Radhika R. Roy AT&T +1 732 420 1580 rrroy@att.com
-----Original Message----- From: Orit Levin [SMTP:orit@radvision.com] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 4:42 PM To: ITU-SG16@MAILBAG.INTEL.COM Subject: Re: [H.323-SIP/Internet] The reason.
Dear Rob! Yes, believe me, I read the official report very carefully. The whole idea is to present "the terms of reference" as a contribution for Osaka meeting. I do not see how it prevents to move the work forward, especially if
many
people see it as valuable.
BTW: Who said the work shouldn't be done jointly? My point was that it may start from documents and people, rather then from "ITU and IETF". And after all we are NOT talking about joined standard definition. In worst case about joined Network definition. :-))
Cheers, Orit Levin RADVision Inc. 575 Corporate Drive Suite 420 Mahwah, NJ 07430 Tel: 1 201 529 4300 (230) Fax: 1 201 529 3516 www.radvision.com orit@radvision.com -----Original Message----- From: Callaghan, Robert Robert.Callaghan@icn.siemens.com To: 'Orit Levin' orit@radvision.com; ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.intel.com ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.intel.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2000 4:09 PM Subject: RE: [H.323-SIP/Internet] The reason.
Orit,
This is the statement from the Q.14 meeting report:
======= Start
3.8.5.1 D.352 - H.323-SIP Interworking [AT&T, et al] This was presented together with D.413. Comments included: · Concerns about joint development with IETF · Which version of SIP would be used? · Suggest postponing this until the next study period - need to look at how Q.13 and Q.14 were formulated 4 years ago and see how output compares with phrasing of work in these questions · Activities should include comparing call models, media signaling · Concerns about increased travel - maybe this should not be done in SG16 · Forming a new question might not be the best answer - this would split the expertise in SG16 again (as Q.13 and Q.14 have moved away from joint sessions) · Need to work from official process of IETF (i.e., use only the IETF equivalent of a Recommendation) · Consider gatekeepers working with TRIP Individuals saw merit in the work. Invite contributions on how to
approach
the work. Need to get scenarios for progressing work in a controlled architectural approach. Ms. Levin has volunteered to draft a framework. See additional notes in Q.13 meeting report.
======= End
This is the statement in the Q.13 report:
======= Start
D.413(2/16) [Canada] - Interworking Between H.323 and SIP Networks
This calls for the creation of an interoperability question in SG16,
that
would cover among other things, H.323/SIP interworking.
With regard to both D.352/D.413, it was noted that there are several versions of SIP, it is hard to start any work to interoperate with SIP
as
SIP is ill-defined at this point in time. The wisdom of starting a new question near the end of the study period was also questioned. It was also mentioned that a great deal of work needs to be done in terms of
defining
the procedures and architecture that would apply to this work. One suggestion is that interoperability should be between standards bodies such as the ITU and IETF, and this should be the focus of the work, i.e. that the target is official IETF RFCs and not SIP type documents produced by various other bodies. There were various expressions of support that this
should
be studied, and contributions related to architectures and priorities are solicited. It was agreed that contributions should address both Q13 and Q14.
======= End
I cannot see in these statements any thing representing an agreement as
to
the work to be performed. Your attached terms of reference were not approved at the working party, which is required, nor in the Question meeting. Without an agreement as to the scope, I do not see how to move the work forward, even if many people see it as valuable. Therefore you
paper
on terms of reference can be accepted as a contribution to the Osaka
meeting
for discussion.
I do know that the proposal for a new question was rejected at the question level, and not brought forward to the working party or study group
level.
Talking to Dale, I know that he wants to start the work with H.225.0
Annex
G to TRIP. Other items are to follow.
For me one of the problems is the culture clash. I do not feel that the ITU should represent itself as SIP experts and I do not accept any IETF
person
as an H.323 expert. Therefore the work should be done jointly. No one wants to repeat the process used by H.248, so what is the process to be used?
Bob
Robert Callaghan Siemens Information and Communication Networks Tel: +1.561.997.3756 Fax: +1.561.997.3403 Email: Robert.Callaghan@ICN.Siemens.com
-----Original Message----- From: Orit Levin [mailto:orit@radvision.com] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 2:27 PM To: ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.intel.com Subject: Re: [H.323-SIP/Internet] The reason.
Hello Sebestyen! There is additional chapter from Q.14 Report with the same meaning, but
I
am sure it doesn't answer your question. During Geneva meeting additional related aspects were discussed. In my previous mail I was referring to
the
attached paper. (You will find references to relevant contributions in this paper.) Currently this paper is one of the opinions and possible directions. We are having this discussion on the list in order to get an
understanding
of the work we would like to pursue and prepare contributions for Osaka meeting. Best Regards, Orit Levin RADVision Inc. 575 Corporate Drive Suite 420 Mahwah, NJ 07430 Tel: 1 201 529 4300 (230) Fax: 1 201 529 3516 www.radvision.com orit@radvision.com -----Original Message----- From: Sebestyen Istvan ICN M CS 27 Istvan.Sebestyen@icn.siemens.de To: ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.intel.com ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.intel.com;
'Orit
Levin' orit@radvision.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2000 2:02 PM Subject: RE: [H.323-SIP/Internet] The reason.
Orit, I am a bit confused on what should be done here. I have only found in
TD-74
(ITU-T SG16 Working Party 2 Report) the following passages:
"D.352(2/16) [Various] - H.323 SIP Interworking
This document calls for a joint ITU-T/IETF study of H.323/SIP
interworking.
D.413(2/16) [Canada] - Interworking Between H.323 and SIP Networks
This calls for the creation of an interoperability question in SG16,
that
would cover among other things, H.323/SIP interworking.
With regard to both D.352/D.413, it was noted that there are several versions of SIP, it is hard to start any work to interoperate with SIP
as
SIP is ill-defined at this point in time. The wisdom of starting a new question near the end of the study period was also questioned. It was
also
mentioned that a great deal of work needs to be done in terms of
defining
the procedures and architecture that would apply to this work. One suggestion is that interoperability should be between standards bodies
such
as the ITU and IETF, and this should be the focus of the work, i.e.
that
the
target is official IETF RFCs and not SIP type documents produced by
various
other bodies. There were various expressions of support that this
should
be
studied, and contributions related to architectures and priorities are solicited. It was agreed that contributions should address both Q13
and
Q14."
Is there anything else as "Mission Statement" for the interim work?
Regards, Istvan
Dr. Istvan Sebestyen Siemens AG, ICN M CS27, Hofmannstr. 51 D-81359 Munich Tel:+49-89-722-47230 Fax:+49-89-722-47713 E-Mail office: istvan.sebestyen@icn.siemens.de; istvan@sebestyen.de E-mail private: istvan_sebestyen@yahoo.com; Siemens Intranet:http://netinfo.icn.siemens.de/es/team/essp/team/essp4 Siemens FTP: ftp://mchhpn006a.mch.pn.siemens.de
--
From: Orit Levin[SMTP:orit@radvision.com] Reply To: Orit Levin Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 6:53 PM To: ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.intel.com Subject: [H.323-SIP/Internet] The reason.
Hi! I would like to highlight the reason of "H.323-XXX" work in ITU-T as described in the initial paper.
H.323 is NOT new to Internet. Internet is evolving and new
specifications
in "IP telephony" area are being defined in IETF. This is a time to consider each one of these specifications to be applied to H.323. If
found
useful from technical point of view (as a kind of Back End Services)
or
just as required for interworking purposes (such as H.323-SIP
scenarios),
standard definitions for H.323 should be formulated. These two are connected since the first definitely helps the second.
The written above agenda is a proposal for the work scope. Based on
our
discussions, it seems like more then one company would like to see
this
work beyond the topic of H.323-SIP interoperability. (forget the name
:-)
) If we agree that standardization is needed for this kind of work,
the
only possible way to do it is to participate in ITU-T process (with
all
its meaning).
Currently we are in the beginning of the process sorting out topics
of
our
interest. I think most of us are aware of the work being done in
other
organizations. We would like to see experts (including from TIPHON
and
IETF) presenting their concepts to ITU (starting from the mailing
list)
keeping us from repeating their work and being aligned with them.
Best Regards, Orit Levin RADVision Inc. 575 Corporate Drive Suite 420 Mahwah, NJ 07430 Tel: 1 201 529 4300 (230) Fax: 1 201 529 3516 www.radvision.com orit@radvision.com