Thanks for your quick read.  Comments below.  I am copying the SG 16 list so they can comment too.  The original document Chip commented on is Osaka TD-20.

-----Original Message-----
From:   Chip Sharp [SMTP:chsharp@CISCO.COM]
Sent:   Wednesday, May 17, 2000 3:03 PM
[PTT]  ... >
>Scope of Agreement
>
>This agreement covers work on the evolution of the Megaco/H.248 base
>protocol and on development of Megaco/H.248 packages.  With limitations, it
>also covers work on the application of Recommendation H.248.  The initial
>parties to this agreement are ITU-T Study Group 16 and the ISOC Vice
>President of Standards on behalf of the IETF Megaco Working Group.  Other
>Study Groups and other IETF  Working Groups may join the agreement by
>notifying the existing parties and the ISOC Vice President of Standards.

The ISOC VP of Standards is listed as an initial party.  Does it need to be
spelled out here?
[PTT] 
I'll cut the last sentence short after "... notifying the existing parties."

Should the Megaco Working Group be listed as an initial party in its own right?
[PTT] 
Legal/procedural constraints at the ITU-T end make the present form necessary, I think.

Is there a contact for SG16 or do we notify all of SG16?
[PTT] 
I'm waiting to find this out.  You'll notice I left this blank later on.

>Other organizations may be accepted into and subscribe to part or all of
>this agreement through consent of the existing parties to the agreement.

As parties are added to the agreement, do new parties have to notify all
the existing parties as of the time of notification or just SG16 and ISOC
VP of Standards?  And how is consent defined (consensus)?
[PTT] 
I'd propose unanimous consent, which also answers your notification question.   If groups want to craft side-agreements they're always free to do so.  Note these are parties other than ITU-T SGs and IETF WGs.  I'll add text to cover notification in the case of these latter.




>Objective
>
>The objective of this procedure is to ensure continued cooperation in and
>coordination of the work of standardization related to media gateway
>control.

Is this specific to H.248/Megaco or is something larger envisioned?
[PTT] 
It wouldn't hurt to say that it is specific to H.248/Megaco, since that's what the rest of this document talks about.  I do hope that some of the principles in the agreement as finally negotiated are useful in other cases.




>Duty Of Notice
>
>Each party undertakes to notify the other (s) whenever it proposes to begin
>work on
>? a new version of the Megaco/H.248 base protocol;
>? a new Megaco/H.248 package;
>? a new Megaco/H.248 profile;
>? an application of the Megaco/H.248 protocol within the context of other
>standardization work.

The last item is a little confusing.  Could you clarify?  Does this mean
that anytime a standards group wants to use H.248 for something it has to
notify all the parties to this agreement, even if it doesn't mean changing
the protocol?
[PTT] 
Yes, that's what I mean.  The reason is so everyone is better aware of emerging requirements.




>Notification to ITU-T Study Group 16 shall be by ...

This seems incomplete. :-)

I would assume that notification to SG16 will be similar to that for Megaco
(i.e., email to the SG16 chair or to the SG16 mail list).

Please keep in mind that SG16 has two email lists.  An official one from
itu.int  that noone seems to use and an unofficial one hosted by intel.com
that is used by everybody.
[PTT] 
From a technical/legal point of view, SG16 has two choices: the responsible Rapporteur(s) or the Chair.  Definitely not the list.  Anyway, it's for them to say.




>Notification to the IETF Megaco Working Group may be by E-mail to its Chair,
>but is preferably by E-mail to the Working Group E-mail list.  Copies of all
>notifications to Megaco or from Megaco shall be sent to the ISOC Vice
>President of Standards, in accordance with procedures agreed between ISOC
>and the ITU-T.

What are these procedures?   Please describe the procedures or provide a
reference.
[PTT] 
I think they are described fully in Recommendation A.5. 




>Modes Of Cooperation
>
>This agreement foresees three modes of cooperation: "Joint Development",
>"Formal Comment", and "Informal Comment".  These are defined as follows.
>
>In "Joint Development" mode, the parties undertake to form a single team of
>experts from the inception of the work concerned.  The final output will be
>published both as an ITU-T Recommendation and one or more standards-track
>RFCs.  Prior to ITU-T determination, the work shall be advanced both at
>meetings of the respective organizations and, between meetings, through
>discussion on the applicable IETF Working Group E-mail list.  Each party
>shall nominate an Editor.  Editors shall cooperate to ensure a common stream
>of documentation into the formal process of each party.  [Proposed: to ease
>the production of IETF documents, documentation shall use the IETF Word
>template until formally submitted to ITU-T determination.]  Subsequent to
>ITU-T determination, the process followed shall be the same as described
>below for the "Formal Comment" mode.

Does this preclude joint development of Information RFCs, Experimental
RFCs, ITU Supplements, Implementor's Guides, etc.?
[PTT] 
Yes, it seems to, but it probably should not.  Good catch.  I think the essential points are joint participation from the beginning, mutual consent to the results (a point raised in discussion here), and joint publication allowing for the full operation of applicable process in each organization.  I'll make the text less specific to reflect this.  I may add suggestions for promoting greater continuity in the process -- I wonder if more extensive use of joint ITU-T/IETF design teams and more careful recording and presentation of the rationale for ITU-T design decisions might have helped.

Is there any guideline that the I-D has gone to "WG Last Call" before SG16
(or other SG) determines that the text is sufficiently mature to apply the
approval procedures (FYI, verbiage taken from Section 8.3.1 of Resolution 1)?
It seems this was one of the big problems we ran into the first time around.

There has got to be something in here about synching up WG last call and
this determination.
[PTT] 
I cover this in the next paragraph (Formal Comment mode), but maybe I have the synchronization point wrong.  You argue the point below, so I'll respond there.

 
>In "Formal Comment" mode, development of the standard is the task of a
>single party to this agreement (the "initiating party") up to the point of
>formal progression of the standard.  This point is reached in the ITU-T when
>the document has been determined.  It is reached in the IETF when Working
>Group Last Call is announced.  At that point, the document shall be
>forwarded to the other organization(s) for comment.  The initiating party
>agrees to allow the other organization(s) sufficient time to complete a
>formal process of comment  [people may want this spelled out] before the
>initiating party completes its own process of formal review, and agrees to
>take the  comments of the other organization(s) into account in determining
>the final contents of the document concerned.  ***The parties to this
>agreement agree that subsequent to determination or commencement of Working
>Group Last Call respectively, the only changes permitted in the document
>will be to provide clarifications and corrections of errors.***

To meet the general case, the technical comments from the non-ITU group
MUST be taken into account before determination to apply the approval
process.  The above wording is a little vague on this.  In the second
sentence, perhaps you should change "has been determined" to "is ready to
be determined."
[PTT] 
I had in mind that WG Last Call is begun only when design seems to be stable.  Hence the proper sequence is determination followed by WG Last Call.  Neither should happen before all requirements have been understood and accounted for.  One reason for putting Last Call after determination is to meet a concern on the ITU-T side that the IETF might never converge if they weren't faced with the sort of finite time limits the ITU process provides.

A point that came up in discussion here: final decision for "Formal Comment" documents should be that of the initiating party, rather than mutual consent.

Also, is the IESG/IETF going to agree that only clarifications and
corrections of errors will be allowed in IETF Last Call and IESG
review?  The interpretation of "clarifications and corrections of errors."
can deviate widely between groups.
[PTT] 
It has worked in the current cycle.  Anyway, I'm sure they'll put their own imprint on this before it gets put into play, so they can speak for themselves.




>In "Informal Comment" mode, members of other organizations are invited to
>provide comments to the initiating party during the process of development
>of the document concerned.  At the option of the initiating party, the draft
>document may be freely disclosed to other parties at any given stage, or
>access to the document may be restricted to the membership of the initiating
>party.

If there is going to be any comment or agreement between the groups, the
distribution of the documentation and procedure for providing comments has
to be available to all the IETF.
Open availability of documentation should be a non-negotiable term of the
agreement.  This should be made clear for each mode.

For IETF this is easy.  For ITU, this is no different than just sending an
email to the IETF mail list saying that they are working on a draft
Recommendation and if you are an ITU Sector Member you can comment.
[PTT] 
You're right on this last.  It may be that it's not worth mentioning the "Informal Comment" mode.  The key point is not to require the ITU to make any document which refers to H.248 freely available -- only those which contribute to the evolution of the protocol itself.

>Applicability Of Development Modes
>All work on the evolution of the Megaco/H.248 base protocol shall follow the
>Joint Development mode, with the IETF Megaco Working Group as one of the
>cooperating parties.
>
>Work on Megaco/H.248 packages shall normally follow the Formal Comment mode.
>Any party has the right to invoke Joint Development mode for specific
>packages.

Does this mean that if SG16 decides to develop a package, an IETF WG can
invoke Joint Development and force SG16 into Joint Development?
[PTT] 
That's what it means, and vice versa.  There was some question about this in discussion here -- Christian Groves wasn't comfortable with the implications for work SG 11 is doing on Q.BICC.  Of course, they may find it preferable to negotiate a different agreement with us, but we'll see.  Christian's concern was that IETFers might not have the necessary background to understand packages SG 11 was developing, and providing that background in the form of additional documents would cost the ITU revenue.

Another point that came up here was that any party should have the right to decline to comment on a specific package (e.g. where they feel it lies beyond their realm of expertise).

Other parties or organizations may want to develop packages that are not
parties to this agreement.  I believe the IANA Considerations section
allows this.  I assume the above only applies to the parties to the agreement.
[PTT] 
Absolutely.

>All other Megaco/H.248-related work shall normally follow the Informal
>Comment mode.  At the option of the initiating party another mode may be
>followed.
>
>Rights Of Publication
>
>All parties have the right to publish documents produced either through
>Joint Development or Formal Comment mode.
>
>Termination And Modification Of Agreement
>
>Any party may withdraw from this agreement on one year's notice.
>Modifications may be made to this agreement at any time by mutual consent of
>the agreeing parties.

Just curious.  Why one year?
[PTT] 
Just to clear the pipeline of work in progress.  Could spell that out instead of assigning a specific time period, I suppose.

...snip...

BTW, it is likely that ITU procedures for approving recommendations is
going to change dramatically by the end of the year.  Therefore, a new
agreement will need to be written that applies the ITU's new approval
process.  The drafts of the process I've seen includes a Last Call-type
procedure.  This may make it a lot easier to synch up the last call
procedures.  Hopefully, it will also get rid of the rush to decide a
document in a specific meeting because the next chance won't be for 9
months.  In addition, there is the chance SG16 may not be called SG16 next
year.  The ITU is restructuring the study groups and they may be split
apart, recombined and/or renumbered.  Old ones may go away and new ones may
form (e.g., an IMT-2000 specific study group).  This should be resolved by
October after the WTSA meeting in September.
[PTT] 
All good points.  We'll have to reconsider all this when the dust settles, but in the meantime it gets some ideas on the table.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Chip Sharp                 CTO Consulting Engineering
Cisco Systems
Reality - Love it or Leave it.
http://www.netaid.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------